The $25k sports car challenge

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein) 08/22/2014 at 01:28 • Filed to: None

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If you've seen any one of my numerous test drive posts over the past couple months ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ), you'd know I'm toying with the idea of ditching my leased BMW 135is for something else that is still fun but saves me money.

This car doesn't really need to be practical at all, because I have a Grand Cherokee for winter, a back seat, and cargo space. My criteria are:

Good-to-great handling
Enough headroom for a 5'11" human
Halfway decent room to spread out for road trips
Sunroof/targa/convertible
Good seats
Sub-14s in the 1/4 mile
$25k or less

Here are the ideas I'm kicking around:

1988-1989 Porsche 944 Turbo S

1985-1991 Porsche 928 S/S4/GT

1993-1995 Mazda RX-7

1990-1996 Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo

2006-2008 BMW Z4 M Roadster

2000-2006 BMW M3 coupe

If you had $25k to burn, and no particular need for practicality, which would you choose, and why?

Cars I have eliminated for various reasons I don't feel like arguing about:

S2000, 986 Boxster S, Cayman, C5 & C4 Corvettes, air-cooled 911s, 3000GT VR4, Z3 M, Z4 M Coupe, E46 M3 vert, E30 & E36 M3, and anything not readily available under $25k.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:32

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Z4M roadster.

Because E46 M3 in a better looking outfit.

AM3R > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:35

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Z4M roadster because it's lighter than an E46 M3 coupe.

BrianNutter > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:35

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Based on your criteria, I think the Z4 is the bedt mstch for you.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:35

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First off, boo on the air-cooled 911s! Not even a 964 or 993 would satisfy your needs??

Now because I do Porsches, I will give you my Porsche recommendations:

Porsche 944 Turbo S

Porsche 944 S2

Porsche 968

Porsche 964 & 993 (Don't care, they're on my list)

Porsche 996(C2S, C4S or Turbo)

What about Mustangs?

Textured Soy Protein > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 08/21/2014 at 23:38

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My feet are too big for air-cooled 911s. Even if that weren't the case, only the 964 & 993 are quick enough for what I want, and they're too expensive.

944 S2 is too slow.

996 C2 would be on my list if I could find a good, relatively low mileage one for under $25k.

Fuck Mustangs.

mcseanerson > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 08/21/2014 at 23:39

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You don't want a 964 for under 25k.

DanZman > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:39

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C6 vettes are cheap and the insurance is cheap too. I'm sure you can easily find one for under 25k. They are also more reliable and probably cheaper to repair if you do have any issues.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:42

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S2, slow?? What?? If you go on Porsche-based forums, you can find some decent 964 and 993 cars around and very close to your budget in their classfields; I recommend looking at Rennlist and Pelican Parts.

And I'm not sure what "relatively low mileage is for you" but it shouldn't be too hard to find a 996.

What size feet do you have? We're the same height, if you're 5'11".

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:42

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Before I got to the bottom of your post my first two suggestions were going to be C5 FRC and E36, not M3 because you can build a regular E36 faster cheaper. Main reason I would suggest those two because they are the fastest things I see at the autocrosses besides Miatas and I'm pretty certain you don't want a Miata.

Textured Soy Protein > DanZman 08/21/2014 at 23:43

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I do like the C6. I tried an '08 with the base suspension, and liked it a fair amount, but probably would go for a Z51. I suppose if I looked hard enough I could find one under $25k. Just don't want too high miles.

It's not higher up my list just because of barely squeaking into the price range, and because it feels kind big despite not being particularly roomy.

StingrayJake > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:45

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I have no experience with anything you've listed, but I really like the styling of the BMW Z4. It would make my short list of sporty roadsters if I was in the market.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > mcseanerson 08/21/2014 at 23:45

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Reason being(If you really think it's THAT bad, that's not always the case)...

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson 08/21/2014 at 23:46

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Already had a Miata a few cars ago.

I want a decent amount of straight-line speed, and not necessarily doing a ton of modifications. Some are fine, but don't want to have to go wild with it.

Textured Soy Protein > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 08/21/2014 at 23:51

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Yes, 944 S2 is slow by my standards of what I'm looking for. It's a lot slower than anything else on this list.

I guess theoretically a <$25k 964 or 993 is a possibility, but the pedals and footrest are just stupid. I wouldn't want to drive one from Madison to Chicago (which I do semi-frequently).

I suppose a 996 C2 is doable. They're...ok.

mcseanerson > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 08/21/2014 at 23:52

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I'm just saying with prices on the rise and the selection under 25k not being very good to begin with I don't see it getting much better.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:54

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You say ok. Why just ok? What's wrong with them; or rather, what do you not like about them?

Also, I guess any 928 would work; so long as you don't find one that's beat to shit or just bad in every way aka money pit.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > mcseanerson 08/21/2014 at 23:55

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There could be a few good ones in there that owners could be willing to let go of, he just has to find them and look in the right spot. Timing is also key.

Aaron James > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:56

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I'd get one of these. Lotus Esprit. No depreciation worries.

1990 Lotus Esprit Turbo

1994 Lotus Esprit S4

mcseanerson > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 08/21/2014 at 23:56

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Timing is key because if anything is decent it will go fast. Personally I'd rather take my time and spend at least 30k on a nicer 964. I have a feeling that would be the cheaper one in the long run.

NotUnlessRoundIsFunny > Textured Soy Protein 08/21/2014 at 23:58

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Speaking as a former 928S4 owner, for the Love of All That Is Holy, do not buy one for this application.

There is no imaginable scenario where a 928 will save you money. Unless it's all the gas money you save from not being able to drive it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > mcseanerson 08/21/2014 at 23:58

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It would be for sure. If he could raise his budget another $5k or so, he could put himself in some nicer air-cooled goodies.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:01

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Just a little more budget....

Textured Soy Protein > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 08/22/2014 at 00:07

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996 to me is very competent but a little boring. It's a very easy car to drive quickly, and has enough power, but sometimes I want a little more drama. My 135is goes slightly bonkers when the turbo fully spools, and makes insane noises in the process.

I'd probably rank 996 C2 above a 944 Turbo S, but it's also a lot more expensive—at least before you factor in maintenance.

I've got a soft spot for the 928 because of its looks. But finding a good one with a manual is very rare. The GTS is out of my price range. The GT is appealing on paper, because it has a little more power, bigger brakes and a cool electronic LSD which was the second of any production car (after the 959's center differential). But that differential is a potential huge cost if it breaks. So the S4 is probably the sweet spot for me.

The 928 could be a moot point though because at least going by the specs, I don't think it has enough headroom.

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson 08/22/2014 at 00:08

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Anything over $25k and I'm not really saving any money compared to my 135is—which I like a lot and would only ditch if I found something else I like a lot and also saves me money.

Textured Soy Protein > NotUnlessRoundIsFunny 08/22/2014 at 00:09

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Fair enough, I had a feeling that might be the case.

I also think I might be too tall for the 928 anyway.

Textured Soy Protein > Aaron James 08/22/2014 at 00:10

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Bahahhahahahha no I'm not going to fit in an Esprit.

Even if I could fit comfortably, while I might not have to worry about depreciation, I would certainly have to worry about repair bills.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:11

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I know, this was more of a joke. Honestly, I can't imagine liking any of those suggestions more than the 135is, except for maybe the RX7 and that's just because it has a timeless classical style design that isn't gimmicky or too much of a certain time period, it is just beautiful.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:11

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It's also much more expensive if you factor in whether or not the IMS/RMS has been done.

I'd imagine that the 928 should have as much or more than a 944. If I were to get any 928, definitely an S4; but good luck finding a nice manual.

DanZman > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:14

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Good points. If you can find one, '08+ is definitely the way to go. When I first got mine I thought it was HUGE, but you get used to it quickly and the car really shrinks around you. The early ones are the less $$$ and but '08+ is really worth it.

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson 08/22/2014 at 00:17

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I love the way the RX-7 looks. I think it's the best looking non-exotic sports car of the modern (90s-present) era. Knocks against it are maintenance costs, and it's got barely enough room inside.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:19

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Yeah, I tried sitting in an FC and it was not happening. The FD looks a bit bigger though. I've also come to realize with a quick release steering wheel I can fit in nearly anything.

Aaron James > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:19

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I'm only 5'8" so I'd slide right into one of these babies. Yeah I guess the big downfall is the reliability and repair cost issues.

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson 08/22/2014 at 00:33

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The FD sorta looks like it'd have more room inside than the FC, because it's wider on the outside than the FC. But actually, the greenhouse is several inches narrower than the lower portion of the body. Most of the extra width doesn't actually translate to interior space—look at how much sheetmetal sticks out past the actual door frame.

Basically, there's a little more room inside than say, an NB Miata, but the center tunnel eats up more space.

I used to have an NB Miata, so I know that I'll fit inside, but there's not much room to spare.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 00:46

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The concern I have personally is always distance to the firewall for my legs and feet and distance from my knees and the top of my legs to the steering wheel. No tilt wheel in my NA Miata is killing me.

Jimmy Tango > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 01:10

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My vote goes to e46 just because. But me owning a e46 330ci from her 7yr to 10yr tells me it won't save you money. (Everything with proper M maintenance is more pricy, even if you DIY simple stuff). You probably can get one under $20k unmolested, but 6k fund for maintenance won't last more than 3 year if you really drive it (I do 15k miles a year.)

Kenaft - some new kid > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 01:15

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I'm confused. You're 5'11", not 6'11"? I would think (as 5'9") I could fit into pretty much any car.

My recommendation is a FD, just for the looks and heritage :D

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson 08/22/2014 at 01:21

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Ah yeah that's right, my NB also lacked a tilt steering wheel. Same with the FD. 944 Turbo is also fixed, but I test drove an '86 and didn't feel the need to adjust the wheel. That particular car had a steering wheel from a 930 which I think might be a bit smaller.

mcseanerson > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 01:22

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Yeah a smaller wheel and a quick release go a long way.

Textured Soy Protein > Kenaft - some new kid 08/22/2014 at 01:31

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There's fitting into a car, and fitting comfortably into a car.

I'm 5'11" but I also have really broad shoulders so need a little room to spread out. I want something I can comfortably drive for a few hours at a time.

Saracen > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 02:11

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Of all those...a Z4 M.

GhostZ > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 03:17

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You have enough leftover to LS-swap it and still have $10,000 to spend on booze and hookers.

For $25,000, you can turn this car into a straight up track monster if you wanted to. They're so absurdly cheap for the performance.

samssun > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 07:13

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Most of these are well under 25k. I think the old Porsches, 300zx, RX-7, and to a lesser extent M3 would be a pain, so the Z4M is probably the best choice. How about 135, STI, or Boxster?

willkinton247 > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 08:32

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I know you nixed the C5 vette, but what about a C5 Z06? 400 HP. 25K. Low miles all day.

Textured Soy Protein > willkinton247 08/22/2014 at 08:51

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No sunroof/targa/convertible available.

Textured Soy Protein > samssun 08/22/2014 at 08:53

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135 - I already have the best non-M 135, I wouldn't get a crappier one

STi - no interest whatsoever

Boxster - too quiet and too slow

Textured Soy Protein > GhostZ 08/22/2014 at 08:54

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Fugly (I mean really, the 280ZX 2+2 you posted is the worst looking Z car ever, no offense if you have one but blech) and I don't want to take on a major project.

willkinton247 > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 08:57

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Ah. I see.

Then go with the E46 M3 Coupe. That car, if you take care of it, will only climb in value.

samssun > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 15:38

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Whoops I read your post as saying you had a 335. If the Boxster is too slow, aren't the old Porsches? Or does the rest of the 25k go into the engine? Still think the Z4M is the best combo of performance and reliability. Next gen with the turbo engine would be a blast though.

Textured Soy Protein > samssun 08/22/2014 at 16:07

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The 986 Boxster S is borderline quick enough, but it's just so quiet it doesn't feel particularly exciting. The 944 Turbo S and 928 S are about the same in a straight line from a standstill, but have more torque, make more noise, and respond better to bolt-ons. The 928 S4 and GT are a good bit quicker.

GhostZ > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 17:53

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It's going to be less of a project than an RX-7, 300ZX, or 80s Porsche, that's for sure.

And the 280ZX doesn't have to be "fugly". Even stock I think it looks better than all of the Porsche 9x4 series.

The problem is that most of them are painted in a gaudy color or negelected. Take care of them and with a few tasteful exterior mods, they look like this:

All of which, I think, look better than an M3, 924, 944, Dodge Daytona, or a Z4 (which I think is fugly, especially compared to the Z3).

Another option is of course a Z31 300ZX, which won't break the bank either and is only a little slower than a Z32 Twin turbo. (250 vs 270 HP, 3000 vs 3300 lbs) these also can reach 300HP with about $1000 worth of modifications, because they stuck a massive turbo on them from factory, but kept the boost low and gave it no intercooler. A Z31 with an intercooler, higher boost, Euro-spec (or NISMO) cams, and high octane fuel can break 320-330HP with a single turbo. They were extremely underrated engines from the factory and remain reliable at those power levels.

I guess my point is that instead of spending $20,000 on an over-priced car that will have reliability issues, spend $5000 on an under-appreciated car that is in perfect mechanical condition and cheap to repair. Dollar for speed it's a no-brainer.

You don't care about practicality or street-ability, so go for something with high heavy potential that is built like a tank from the factory. None of your options (including the Z32) really reflect that, they are all cars that will, at your budget, necessitate repairs to maintain their factory-level of performance, rather than allowing you to exceed it.

adonyc2014 > Textured Soy Protein 08/22/2014 at 17:55

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None of them will cost less per month than your BMW lease. With the exception of the Z4 M Roadster and M3, all will incur substantial maintenance costs that will negate the benefit of abandoning your lease.

Textured Soy Protein > adonyc2014 08/22/2014 at 18:16

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I can get 2.9% auto loans from my credit union. A $25000 loan at 2.9% for 5 years is $448/month. My 135is lease is $447/month. The more I go under $25k borrowed, the more money I save.

Textured Soy Protein > GhostZ 08/22/2014 at 18:16

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You're not going to sell me on this idea.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein 08/23/2014 at 21:31

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I'd happily own any of the cars on this list.

No argument, but why did the Z4M get dismissed? Just personal preference?

Any plans to get the car you choose out to the track?

Textured Soy Protein > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 08/24/2014 at 19:55

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I want some kind of roof opening, be it a sunroof, targa or convertible. Z4M Coupe has no sunroof.

I'm not much of a track person. I've done a very occasional autocross or track day, but it's infrequent enough that it doesn't really factor into my decision.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein 08/24/2014 at 21:41

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Ah... didn't realize that. Look forward to seeing what you choose.

adonyc2014 > Textured Soy Protein 08/25/2014 at 11:14

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That is just the monthly payment. And that is presuming that your credit union will give you a loan for a 15-20 year-old car. Most will not.

You are also being naive about the maintenance costs. You are trading in a leased BMW that likely includes routine maintenance for free and most certainly includes a warranty. None of the cars you are considering will have maintenance costs less than your leased Bimmer.

Unless you want something older simply for the experience of it, do not do what you are proposing to save money. You will not.

Financial planners have a term for your idea: bad.

Textured Soy Protein > adonyc2014 08/25/2014 at 14:34

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Yes, it's the monthly payment. There's a reason for that.

The 135is is a lease—at the end, I turn in the car. At which point I'd need to get some other car to replace it. Which will have a payment.

I'm spending whatever the new car costs either now, or after making 22 more lease payments of $447/mo on the 135is which is $9,834.

As long as I spend less than $9,834 on maintenance and repairs on this hypothetical new car, I'll have saved money.

DatsunOfABit > Textured Soy Protein 09/04/2014 at 13:58

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I love my 90 300zx TT, but if you are not mechanically inclined and ready to work in tiny tight spaces, you may want to pass. It fits all the requirements, but they are a delicate and complicated beast. With 25k however, you can get one in great condition or with a freshly built engine and new turbos, at which point you are in for a whole hell of a lot of fun. They can be supercar fast on a budget of 25k, or for 25k they can be factory condition and low miles, but finding a reliable DD version with no mods will be a real task. If you are prepared to go 300zx, make sure you are prepared to hunt for a minute to get a good one. I cannot comment on anything else other than the M3 coupe, which I will also say is a great car, but it lacks the T Top of the Z .